New dual degrees are springing up for MBA students. Along
with law and medicine you could go into show business for example. With equal
education in the show and on business. Or maybe get your joint degree in public
policy. It takes an extra year or so and costs you more money but going for a
dual degree can lead you to assume leadership roles in non-traditional MBA
careers and you could have broader career options and you can exercise greater
leverage when negotiating your salary or promotions. I’m Diana Jordan with MBA
Podcaster and in this show we will learn the challenges and the benefits of
joint degrees for MBAs who double up.

We will hear from Phil Reich who completed his MD/MBA degree
from the University of California Irvine and the Paul Merage School of Business
in the spring of 2008 and is now working as a medical resident. “It’s for people
who want a little bit more of a non-traditional career path and are willing to
spend the extra time and money to get there.”

Professor Robert Stavins is co-chair of the Harvard Business
School/Harvard Kennedy School Joint Degree Program where they offer the MBA in a
dual degree with a Masters in Public Policy and a Masters in Public
Administration. “Our purpose in this program to develop people who are
outstanding leaders who are skilled in management and also in the shaping of
innovative public policy.

At New York University there are eight dual degrees. Isser
Gallogly is the Executive Director of MBA Admissions at the NYU School of
Business, “The best students are those who have really thought it through. Who
really know where they want to go, what they want to do and understand what
degrees are going to be valued in those roles.”

And at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern
University, Beth Flye is Assistant Dean and Director of Admissions and Financial
Aid, “An investment in education can only grant returns.”

Phil Reich had his bachelor’s degree in engineering and was a
consultant after college which peaked his interest in business. Then he decided
to go to medical school like his dad, “My Father is a doctor and one of the
things he had always said to me was that one thing he missed in his education
was not having that business experience because he knows his colleagues are very
good at medicines but then when it comes to billing or when it comes to running
a business that he felt like he had lacked something. So he had always told me
if I go into medicine to kind of look into expanding my education and then the
opportunity came up to do this dual degree and it just seemed like it fit really
well.”

Normally a MD takes four years and a MBA takes two but at UC
Irvine combined it took Phil five years. “It’s not too bad especially because by
the time we enter business school we’re already used to being students because
we’ve been a MD student for a few years so you go on to business school and
you’re already in the student mode. So I think a lot of us who did the dual
degree found that business school a little less challenging than people who came
right out of the workforce and jumped right back into doing a MBA.”

Professor Robert Stavins says they’ve recently launched a new
joint degree program between Harvard Business School and Harvard Kennedy School
and at the completion of a three year program students will receive both the MBA
degree and the Masters in Public Policy or the Masters in Public Administration
and International development degree, “As we considered it we eventually after
very careful deliberation that went on for about a year and a half to two years
we determined that the merits were there and the market was there to establish a
joint degree program.” Professor Stavins, what is the mission? “Our purpose in
this program is to develop people who are outstanding leaders who are skilled in
management and also in the shaping of innovative public policy who are then
going to go on to assume positions of significant influence spanning business,
government and in many cases non-profit organizations and thereby contributed
very significantly to the well-being of society.”

Beth Flye of the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern
says there are two full-time joint degree programs available there. Along with
the MBA students can work for the Masters of Management and Manufacturing also
known as the triple M program and the Masters of Engineering Management. And
with the Northwestern school of Law the JD/MBA, “Our program is very unique in
that it is a three year program so it’s more accelerated whereas you’re probably
aware the very large majority of JD/MBA programs involve applying to the MBA
admissions office plus applying to the law school. You must be admitted to both
and it’s usually four years in duration. And then we bring in a class on average
each year usually within the range of 20-25 incoming students. And then by the
way bumping back over to the student, the incoming class size for our triple M
class on average it’s between 55 and 60 students.”

Isser Gallogly said NYU introduced two new dual degree
programs last year, “The two new dual degrees that we introduced last year are a
MBA/MSA (a Masters of Fine Art) and that one is really intended to people who
want to go into the production of movies. So we’re doing that in conjunction
with the NYU Tisch School of the Arts. The other new dual degree that we
introduced last year is a MBA/MS in Mathematics and Finance. And we’re doing
that with our graduate school of arts and sciences specifically the Courant
institute. And that degree is really designed for people who wanted to go into
very quantitative mathematical finance so it’s a very unique program. We also
have existing dual degree programs. We have a JD/MBA program; we have a MBA/MPA
(Masters of Public Administration) with our Wagner School of Public Service. And
then we have three sort of niche programs: a MBA/MA, a Master of Art and French
Studies, a MBA/MA, a Master of Art and Politics, and then MS/MBA, a Master of
Science and Biology.”

Isser Gallogly says it’s a good sign that NYU is starting new
dual degree program, “It’s definitely a good opportunity for candidates where
the programs make sense. And they tend to be very specialized in nature. So the
two new dual degrees that we introduced the MS in Math and the MSA in Fine Arts,
the film producer one I mean very specific audiences. There are a number of
positions in the finance world where not only do they want the general
management skills that you get from a MBA. They also want the specific details
quantitative skills that you would get basically by getting the MS in
Mathematics so it’s really for people who have very specialized role within
finance doing a lot of modeling, rigorous quantitative analysis. The MSA on the
other hand is for people who really want to go into film production where they
are going to need both the arts background in terms of how are movies produced,
how does that whole process work. They need the knowledge in order to be a
producer. They also need the business skills that you get from a MBA so in those
cases there are very, very specific built on a specific need for a specific
intended industry and career.”

Robert Stavins says before launching new degrees Harvard
researched former students who either obtained two degrees prior to the joint
degree program or who received only one Masters but in their work life went back
and forth between different sectors. “We asked them gee what was missing from
your education and the report that we got back from them plus all of the other
research we did and all of the discussions we had then led us to conclude that
the establishment of a joint degree program with the curriculum we set up in
what is needed.”

Please give us some examples. “We had students who have gone
through the MBA program and then have taken on roles are a major consulting firm
whether it’s Management Consulting such as McKenzie or other kind of consulting
work in which essentially their clients were fully in the public sector. Reports
we got from those kinds of graduates of the program indicated that an
understanding of the public sector of who their clients were would have been
exceptionally useful. Another example that we heard a lot about were people who
are working in the corporate world and were in the department of government,
affairs environmental affairs or corporate affairs and it was especially
important for them to understand fundamentally the political context in which
the modern corporation exists and the reports we got back from them is that they
would have benefited from the education they would have received from an
institution such as the Kennedy School of Government. On the other side of the
ledger we spoke with students who have come through the Kennedy School program,
were working in government typically but were intimately involved with the
private sector and who really lacked an understanding of the internal workings
and the mindset of a corporation and that led to they were being not as
effective as they could be.”

Beth Flye, what are benefits of these two programs at
Northwestern? “I think that just t say with both of them I think in terms of
just career flexibility in terms of options and of course that that is based on
the education that they are getting through Kellogg but also at the law school
or with triple M through Kellogg but also at McCormick which is our engineering
school. And that also translates into not just the diversity and the breadth and
depth of curriculum of two schools, two programs. That also translates into a
skill set that that is going to give both some unique training that I think is a
person some competitive advantages obviously but also when I think is great is
on the career side is they have a lot more options.”

Isser, what does it mean that the number of joint degrees are
increasing? “I think that you’re seeing a lot of overlap in terms of the
knowledge required to succeed. You know back in the day there used to be a big
separation between the world of entertainment and the world of business. And I
think you’re seeing more and more overlap. There used to be more division
between television and the internet and now those lines are incredibly blurred.
So I think in many cases the future business leaders of tomorrow are going to
need more than business knowledge. I think in some cases they are going to need
specialized industry knowledge in addition to that.”

Please explain your MBA/MFA program, “The MBA/MFA is
definitely to bridge the gap between creative and suits and it’s really for
aspiring film producers. Understanding that the landscape of film production
today is changing rapidly. It’s between NYU Stern and the Ken Bar Institute of
Film and Technology Tisch School of Arts and both are sort of preeminent in
their fields and this is for people who really want to go work in a major film
studio or an independent production company, perhaps a major television studio
or network. And the program itself will take three years to complete and that
actually includes two summers. The students usually start at Stern and then take
their second year at Tisch and the third year is split between the two schools.
Both summers they are working on degree requirements for Tisch. So it’s a very
unique, very unique program and it really does expose you to very different
aspects of film production.”

What are the benefits? “Well aside from of course the benefit
of time and money savings it’s really about the knowledge. So a lot of people
pursuing like I said the MFA/MBA who want to go into film production. They
understand that in order to be a successful film producer they need not just
business credentials they also need credentials in terms of the film industry.
They really need to understand that and have knowledge so going to an elite
school like the Tisch School here at NYU really does give them that. It also
obviously expands the amount of context that they have with their intended
industries by not only talking with Tisch graduates and Tisch students and the
types of people who come from through as well as the business school. Similarly
people hang into out MBA/MS in Math Finance the benefits for them are they are
going to pick up a really unique skill-set, really unique skills for their
toolbox. Not only the general knowledge that a MBA provides and the financial
knowledge that we can provide. In addition, they get those very specific,
rigorous, high level quant finance that really only a MS in Math Finance can
provide. So they kind of have the general skills plus they have the specialized
skills.”

Rob, who will benefit from a joint degree at Harvard? “These
students in terms of their career interests fall into several categories. One
will be people who are interested in going to pursue what I would call cross
sectoral leadership and by that I mean that the person’s home is in sector
public or private but their audience, their target is in the other sector. Now
an example of that would be someone who is working in government in the
regulatory sphere so their working in government but in fact it’s the business
community that is the audience essentially for all of their work. On the flip
side of that picture someone who is in the government or corporate affairs
department of a major corporation. So they’re fully in the private sector and
yet the target of all of their work, the focus of all of their work is the
public sector. So that’s cross sectoral leadership. There’s another group of
people that we think of as by-sectoral leadership positions and these are
situations in which one is actually working in both sectors. For example in the
area of public private partnerships that are increasingly common. Beyond those
it’s also the case that a number of students in fact of students we surveyed who
came out of Harvard Business School and the Kennedy School we found that they
had multi-sectoral career paths, that they move back and forth from one sector
to another. They might start for example in the private sector then go into
government for some period of time and then go back into the private sector. Add
to that the whole role of non-profit organizations which to some degree are very
much like private sector entities in profit making corporations but have
missions that are much closer to what we think of as in the public sector so
they would also benefit from this. So for all of those career paths we
anticipated, in fact we learned through focus groups and research that there
would be tremendous benefits to be had through going through this joint degree
program.”

Phil just entered a medical residency; did the dual degree
make you more competitive? “Getting the dual degree did help me to get the
residency spot that I wanted. I think partly because it made me stand out a
little bit amongst the crowd. Because when you have people applying for medical
residency there is hundreds and thousands of people sometimes applying for maybe
five or six spots and they get a bunch of applications that all look the same
and then they see maybe my application where I’m a little bit different, I’ve
done something a little unusual, I’ve done a MBA and it kind of makes me stand
out. I think that got me into more interviews than I would have otherwise.”

Phil, what are the benefits to you if you want to broaden
your role from just being physician and how will you stand out from other
doctors? “The stereotype is that they don’t have a strong background in business
so having the MBA I think should I decide to do something administrative later
down the line I think that will give me a leg up and also sort of a better
knowledge base as well to get to that position.”

Beth, what are the benefits of the joint programs at
Northwestern, “From the plus side what is wonderful the triple m program is a
two year program and students are integrated here at Kellogg so they have the
best of both worlds. They have not just in terms of you know curriculum and
academic training but just in terms of the many other opportunities outside of
the classroom they have that here, they have that at McCormick. They also have
of course the alumni network here but they also their Northwestern alums and
that includes the McCormick group.”

What were some of the initial challenges in the joint group
program? “One was extended our education. Most of our friends graduate from med
school and we’re still staying, we’re still back in school. I would say the
transition from going from medical school to business school was again a little
bit challenging. You know we’d been used to a certain way of learning in medical
school and then all of the sudden you’re jumping into business school and
there’s totally different expectations, a totally different way of learning,
etc. And so I think it took us a little bit of time to get used to. Since it
still a fairly new concept there’s a little bit of sometimes skepticism I think
especially in the medical world for people who have been going into business. I
think that they sometimes look at you a little suspiciously are you really
committed to medicine or are you committed to business I think some of my
friends and who did the dual degree maybe a little bit of that too. I would say
those are the major difficulties.”

Isser, what are the challenges at NYU? “I think one thing
that they may not anticipate is that they really need to be actually very
patient and flexible, certainly adaptable while all of our programs are at NYU,
they are at different graduate schools which are completely different programs
and each program has different procedures and policies and different cultures,
different structure and way to approach things. So what their experience may be
in one school in terms of how to get things done, how to approach things is
going to be very different than in another school. The way that the law school
handles things or the way the Tisch School of the Arts handles things will be
different than the way Stern handles things. To use a business analogy it’s as
if you’re working at a large multi-national corporation and you’re working in
two separate divisions concurrently. The way one division is structured and
handles things is going to be very different than the way the other division is.
So I think the students have to make a conscious effort to recognize that and
will have to be even more proactive about understanding the differences between
those programs in terms of how to navigate things. So I think a logistical thing
but a very important thing to bear in mind. I think that the other thing is that
they are going to be very proactive in terms of really being on top of their
progression through the programs. You know these aren’t as standardized to path
so they need to really spend a lot of time with the advising offices at both
schools to understand exactly how to you know to sequence their courses and how
to make sure that they’re making registration deadlines and making the wisest
use of the dual resources available to them. And I think the other piece is of
the culture of the students at the different schools is going to vary a little
bit as well. And usually the student will start at one program or the other and
they should recognize that the students that they meet at one program when they
switch the other program there may be different norms of how to interact with
their classmates.”

Please illustrate, “By its nature, the Tisch School is a very
creative school. A lot of people pursuing arts in different fields so I think it
would be a little more informal by nature, a little bit more creative, maybe a
little bit more out there than the business school which would probably be a
little bit more structured, a little bit more focused against objectives as
you’d expect from business students. Whereas the law school, in the law school
about a third, forty percent of their students don’t have work experience so
they are a bit younger, a little bit less experience with the business world
whereas almost all of our students have work experience. At Stern about four and
half years so there’s going to be a difference in terms of just the baseline of
business knowledge. And of course at a law school a lot of that is an
adversarial process inherently the legal system is an adversarial process so
there’s a lot of debate, a lot of taking one side or the other whereas in
business it’s usually about expanding the pie or at least it is at Stern which
is a very collaborative teamwork type of approach. So to go from you know a
system of debating where you’re really trying to kind of win you know one side
versus the other to a system where diverse perspectives are trying to figure out
how to work together to achieve a unified goal, it’s just different. So they do
have to kind of screw their head on a little bit differently when they walk into
a different building.”

What are the challenges at Harvard? “One challenge is
obviously that it is one year longer so many people who are currently working
and are going to take time off to go back to school either to get a MBA degree
or a master’s in Public Policy they have to recognize that rather than a two
year program they’re talking about a three year program and the opportunity
costs of that time either financially or in terms of time away from the job can
be significant. Now it’s because of that actually that we’re putting together
financial aid packages so that it will not cost anyone anything additional in
terms of out of pocket expenses to do the third year of the program compared to
a two year program that they otherwise would have done.”

You say that there is another challenge? An exciting one?
“This really requires students who can move back and forth and take on two
fundamentally different perspectives. Either the perspective of the private
industry or the perspective of government. The students with whom they will find
themselves, not those in the joint degree program but the larger pool of
students. For example, at Harvard business school will have a very much business
perspective and won’t really understand the workings of government and
understand the perspective of people who are interested in government work.
Likewise when they’re with students at the Kennedy School of government they are
going to be with students who don’t understand what the business perspective is.
They are the bridge between those two groups. Now when they are with their peers
in the joint degree program they are going to be with a very special group of
people who are eventually capable of understanding the perspective of those on
the other side and that is a tremendous benefit to have when people get out and
start to work but it’s also going to be a challenge while they are in school.”

At Northwestern what are the challenges? “Specific challenges
may be at times more of a perception issue with students on the front end and to
me that ultimately comes back to what are your goals and arrive at finding out
what are the options to arrive at those career goals and what is the best path
for that particular person.”

Phil, what was the transition like as you moved between
medical school and business school? “Some of my colleagues found all of the
sudden they’re working in groups and in medical school you’re working by
yourself and that transition took a little while to get used to compared to
people who went straight to business school and kind of had that background in
business rather than the background in medicine before starting.”

Rob, what advice do you have for students? “I think that
students should ask themselves whether or not they really need this degree. Some
students will be fine with a MBA degree on its own and some students will be
fine with a Public Policy degree on its own. The students who really should
apply and those who are most likely to be successful in terms of the application
process those for whom their background and their future interests are truly at
the nexus of the business/government relationship.”

Isser, what advice do you have? “They really need to make
sure that they need both degrees. I would not advise it to anybody who has not
done a lot of research. So it’s for people who really like I say know who they
are, know what their intended industries and fields and functions are and have
really recognize that both skill sets are incredibly valuable to them and that
they cannot get that skill set to a level which they want it without getting
both dual degrees. So I think that kind of focus and thought out approach is
good. They also need to be incredibly talented to get into our business school
is challenging enough. If you put on top of that getting into NYU’s law school
or the Kron school for math/finance, or the Tisch school for film production
those are incredibly competitive programs so they need to be really, really
talented in both. The application process typically for dual degrees is they
need to apply to both schools individually and meet both school’s admissions
standards so it does take a very talented and unique individual.”

Beth, you said that students should exercise due diligence in
choosing their programs? “The JD/MBAs just a really, really bright group, very
well accomplished, highly selective when it comes to admission and one of the
things that they the ones that graduate at graduation say wow I just wish I had
more time at Kellogg but it’s meant to be absolutely positive in terms of you
know there are a lot of offerings, they enjoy having two networks. In the law
school network alumni base as well as that network and base of alums here at
Kellogg.” So Beth what advice do you have for perspective candidates? “I would
advise listeners to keep a wide perspective about program options; for many
people that can be a discovery process.”

And Phil has advice for students who might be considering a
joint degree, “A lot of people will go into and do two separate degrees, they
want MD/MBA or a JD and a MBA or what not and they will do two separate degrees.
I think that it’s to somebody’s major advantage to look into programs that offer
the two together because as I mentioned it can sometimes shorten the amount of
time that it takes to do the dual degrees. The other things are to look at is to
understand if you do want to do a dual degree to make sure that you look into
programs where you have the opportunity to add on the extra degree if you want
to at a later time or if you have to decide beforehand, etc. And then also to
just think about your goals and really decide if the extra degree is going to
get you where you want to go. It’s not worth just doing the extra degree for the
sake of doing the extra degree. I think if you really ask yourself what am I
going to do with this extra degree and is it going to be helpful and if you
decide that yes this could help me get to my goals then I think it’s worth going
ahead and pursuing it.”

Isser, who is best suited for the dual degree programs? “The
candidates that are best suited for dual degrees are typically those with a
really good career focus, really clear career focus. People who have talent in
both intended fields who are competitive for both intended fields and a person
who basically has a goal that is going to really utilize both degrees to the
fullest. I think those are some of the most important things and it is for
someone who is very proactive who is adaptable who is going to take the
initiative in terms of managing their educational process. These are really not
programs designed for somebody who expects someone to sort of you know lay
everything out perfectly for them and kind of take their hand and walk them
through everything. If you’re going to be bridging multiple worlds and that
person has to be an effective navigator.”

Phil, what was your experience like? “I definitely really
enjoyed doing the dual degree. I think the biggest thing for me is it has given
me two major things and that is extra credibility in the medical when I start
talking about anything that is business related people trust me because I have
the MBA and vice versa in the business world people trust me a little bit more
because I have the MD. And I think the other big thing about it is it has given
me more confidence. Without having that sort of background I never would have
thought that I could have been the leader in the medical world but now that I
have a MBA I realize that now I think I can do that and vice verse if I had just
a business degree it would be hard for me to feel confident in being a leader in
the healthcare world because I’d have no medical background but I think having
that medical background has given me the confidence to be able to pursue that.
So I think those two things are the biggest benefits.”

What do you hope students take away from your message? “I
really think that doing research ahead of time and really thinking about where
your goals are and if that extra degree will match your goals is key because in
the end if you go through it all if you’ve done the extra degree and you find
out that you didn’t really need that degree anyway you just kind of wasted time.
Research ahead of time and really talking to people sort of the real key to
deciding whether it’s right for you.”

Rob, you say top companies are already approaching Harvard to
get a leg up on the best students. What is your best hope? “Not just students
who are doing degree program but anyone doing a MBA in today’s world really
ought to understand the public and social perspective and context as well. And
likewise anyone today doing a master’s in public policy whether it is at Harvard
or some other university really ought to understand the private sector and the
private sector perspective as well. So our hope is that not only will this
program grow at Harvard in terms of better training for a select group of
students but will have an overall positive influence on the curricula of both
Harvard business school and the John F. Kennedy School of government and perhaps
other universities as well.”

It wouldn’t surprise Beth to see more innovation in graduate
degrees including possibly adding more joint degrees, “The schools need to be
thinking how do we remain competitive but also stay cutting edge and innovative.
I think that’s where there can be an opportunity on dual degree programs in
general.”

And Isser what is the message you hope people take away from
this podcast today? “That a person who may think that they’re a little bit
different there are a lot of different options for them.”

For more information, advice and to read a transcript of any
of our shows please visit MBAPodcaster.com. For MBA Podcaster, I’m Diana Jordan.
Join us next time when we discuss another topic of interest in your pursuit of a
MBA. Stay tuned.

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